Maximum level - Revision history

Flux at 17:21, 23 March 2013

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Flux at 19:13, 6 September 2012

2012-09-06T19:13:36Z

Flux at 18:47, 23 August 2012

2012-08-23T18:47:40Z

Flux: /* More Levels Just for Fun? */

2011-07-02T11:09:38Z

‎More Levels Just for Fun?

Flux: /* Stated Reasons for the Change */

2011-07-02T11:05:35Z

‎Stated Reasons for the Change

Flux: /* Max Without Grinding */

2011-03-16T12:22:17Z

‎Max Without Grinding

Flux at 02:10, 26 January 2011

2011-01-26T02:10:08Z

Flux at 23:06, 23 January 2011

2011-01-23T23:06:14Z

Flux: Created page with "Diablo III's maximum character level is 60. This is a big change from Diablo II, where characters reached 60 midway through Nightmare difficulty, and maxed out at 99; a leve..."

2011-01-23T22:24:52Z

Created page with "Diablo III's maximum character level is 60. This is a big change from Diablo II, where characters reached 60 midway through Nightmare difficulty, and maxed out at 99; a leve..."

New page

Diablo III's maximum character level is 60. This is a big change from Diablo II, where characters reached 60 midway through [[Nightmare]] difficulty, and maxed out at 99; a level that was only achieved through hundreds or thousands of games of [[grind]]ing high level bosses or areas.

Diablo III developers initially planned to follow in those footsteps, and early predictions of the maximum level were 99 or 100. They changed their minds during development, lowering the level to 60 to stay in line with numerous other [[end game]] changes, and perhaps also their plans to add to the maximum level in the expansion packs, the way World of Warcraft has done.

After initial skepticism and disagreement, most fans accepted the logic behind the change, and a site vote on Diii.net found nearly 50% of fans strongly supportive of the change, with just 16% objecting to it.[http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/vote-diablo-iiis-clvl-60-level-cap/]

==Stated Reasons for the Change==

[[Skills]]. With just 60 skill points (plus some from quest rewards?) the game can be balanced to make each Skill point feel valuable. With more skill points they must be balanced to do less each, or else characters would become overpowered. [http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/diablo-iiis-maximum-level-announced-60/] Plus the higher level skill points will still be and feel valuable in D3, rather than just adding .2% to some passive skill, or to a 3rd or 4th synergy skill, as they did in D2.
* The same principle applies to [[trait]] points, naturally.

[[End game]] fun. There will be better things to do in Diablo III's end game than endlessly grind the same level or boss. The team has not revealed what they'll be yet, but they've often talked about making the end game more varied than it was in D1 or D2.

Characters do not feel "finished" when they reach Clvl 60.[http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/more-clvl-60-replies-and-debate/] In D2, players tended not to play characters anymore once they'd reached the highest level. Most players were bored of that char by then, after all the grinding, and it seemed pointless to play when you were not gaining experience. This is not at all the case in WoW, where characters reach the maximum level before finishing all the content, and are then still played to [[raid]] the hardest dungeons, looking for top items. In WoW (and some other RPGs) characters essentially *have* to be max level to handle the hardest dungeons. This might be what the D3 team is planning; end game dungeons that are only doable for expert players with very powerful characters, who would have fun and item hunt and earn achievements by doing them.

==More Levels Just for Fun?==

Some fans suggested that the experience counter keep rolling, or that levels beyond 60 exist; they wouldn't add any skill points or other powers, but they'd exist just to show that players had gained X more experience. Bashiok said no:[http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/im-clvl-60...-now-what/]

<blue>There’s no such thing as extra levels for people who want to grind them out. Either they’re there and provide a necessary boost in power in which case it’s not a choice to get them or not, or they don’t exist. We’re not going to put in extra levels that provide no bonus simply so people have achievements to work toward. That’s what achievements are for. </blue>

==Character Level Progression==

The level progression curve is being designed to characters should reach 30 at the end of normal difficulty, 50 at the end of Nightmare difficulty, and 60 at the end of Hell difficulty. The 30/50/60 progression is not set in stone, of course, but the team will be designing the experience curve and monster difficulty along those lines.

Actual level up progress will vary between players, of course. Players who skip through areas quickly and do not explore all of dungeons will probably not get quite to 60 on one pass, while completists who explore every bit of the levels will max out at 60 before they complete Hell.

The actual number of levels is largely irrelevant, as Bashiok explained on September 21, 2010:

<blue>It all comes down to an XP curve. We could, for instance, say the level cap in Diablo III is 60 and then pace that curve and gain out over what we estimate it took someone to reach 99 in Diablo II. Of course we wouldn’t do that but it should help illustrate that the time from 1-60 in Diablo II does not equal the amount of time it will take to reach 60 in Diablo III. 60 levels versus 99 levels doesn’t mean less content or less powerful characters, etc. These aren’t uniform levels of power that move from game to game. And in fact we are pushing a longer game than Diablo II and I’d argue our characters feel way more powerful.</blue>

==Max Without Grinding==

Allowing characters to max out their level without endless grinding is one of the main stated reasons for this change. The [[D3 Team]] thinks they can offer a much more fun and varied [[end game]] than endlessly [run]ning the same level or [[boss]], and they do not want to force players to endure that style of play in order to reach the max level. There are numerous reasons for this.

The [[Arena]], for one. The team announced the Clvl 60 change long before they revealed their plans for Arena battles, but once that game feature was known, the connection became obvious. Players will want to duel with their high level characters, and since character power is closely tied to Clvl, the developers wanted to level that playing field. By designing the game so that characters could reach the maximum level through the normal content, players can create top level dueling characters without spending hundreds of repetitious hours. (Freeing them up to spend those hundreds of repetitious hours hunting items to use in the Arena.)

==Arguments Against Sixty==

Most players agreed with the developers' logic, but there was still quite a bit of debate over making the maximum level so easy to reach. In the earlier games in the series, building a maximum level character was a sign of devotion, skill, and a lot of time spent playing. That distinction is gone in Diablo III, now that anyone can get to Clvl 60 just by completing the base content. It's not known how long that will take, but certainly a lot less than it did to reach 50 in Diablo I, or 99 in Diablo II.

The counter argument by the developers is that Diablo III will have much better things to do in the end game than just grinding the same boss over and over again. They've assured fans that there will be plenty of things to do long term, and that there will be better ways to show off your [[epeen]] than a character in the 90s. Those other options haven't been revealed yet, but the team has said there will be high level [[Achievements]], and that characters will fight for ranking on some sort of Arena [[Ladder]]. Other end game diversions have yet to be revealed.

Skeptical fans also pointed out that Clvl 60 was the same maximum level cap that World of Warcraft offered, before that was raised by 10 the first two WoW expansions, and 5 more in the third. Since at least two expansions are planned for Diablo III, and since each will add another Act to the game, along with other content, Diablo III following in WoW's footsteps with an increased Clvl in each expansion seems a safe bet.

[[category:character]]
[[category:basics]]
[[category:experience]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:13, 6 September 2012
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	After initial skepticism and disagreement, most fans accepted the logic behind the change, and a site vote on Diii.net found nearly 50% of fans strongly supportive of the change, with just 16% objecting to it.[http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/vote-diablo-iiis-clvl-60-level-cap/]		After initial skepticism and disagreement, most fans accepted the logic behind the change, and a site vote on Diii.net found nearly 50% of fans strongly supportive of the change, with just 16% objecting to it.[http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/vote-diablo-iiis-clvl-60-level-cap/]
		+
		+	The maximum level was effective extended in patch v1.0.4, when the [[Paragon]] levels system was added to the game. This provides 100 additional levels once a character reaches level 60, with each paragon level adding 3% Magic Find, 3% Gold Find, and the usual level up bonus to stats (+3 main stat, +2 vitality, +1 to both off stats.)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:47, 23 August 2012
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−	==~~Stated~~ Reasons for the Change==	+	==Ongoing Debate==
		+
		+	The level 60 decision was reached in 2010 when many game features were far from their final state. At that point [[skill points]] and [[trait]] points were still in the game, so much of the debate over the issue revolved around how powerful characters would feel with fewer such points to allocate to their active and passive skills. The other main complaint was that the end game would be boring without any sort of ongoing character progression.
		+
		+	The developers discounted those concerns and insisted that the end game would offer plenty of fun even without any sort of character building. Ultimately, their predictions on that front proved incorrect, and most fans post-release were displeased iwth the lack of end game activities and no sense of character progression. This realization prompted the introduction of the Paragon Level system in v1.0.4, in August 2012.
		+
		+
		+	==The Paragon Levels System==
		+
		+	Shortly after Diablo III's launch, many fans found the [[end game]] lacking. The difficulty balance of [[Inferno]] levels was much debated and constantly tweaked by Blizzard in patches, but an additional area of discord was the lack of a sense of character progression. With the max level achieved by a single play-through of the Normal/Nightmare/Hell content, the end game became entirely about grinding for items, and with Diablo III's item system built largely around the Auction House, most players very seldom '''found''' any item upgrades. Players felt they were simply grinding for gold, which they could then spend in the [[Auction House]] to obtain better gear.
		+
		+	Blizzard attempted to address this complaint with numerous re-balances to Inferno, including much increased item drop rates, but they also implemented the [[Paragon Levels]] system, which adds 100 more levels (achieved from experience gain) once a character achieves level 60. With each Paragon Level a character gains the same attribute bonuses as a normal level up (3 to main stat, 2 vitality, 1 each to the non-main stats), plus 3% better Magic Find and Gold Find. This feature works hand in hand with a new Magic/Gold Find cap of 300%, so that a character at the maximum Paragon Level 100 would have maximum gold and magic find without using a single item to boost those stats.
		+
		+	How well this new feature will address fan complaints about item finding and end game enjoyment remains to be seen, but the feature seems popular in the days after v1.04's debut.
		+
		+
		+	==Original Reasons for the Level 60 Change==

	[[Skills]]. With just 60 skill points (plus some from quest rewards?) the game can be balanced to make each Skill point feel valuable. With more skill points they must be balanced to do less each, or else characters would become overpowered. [http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/diablo-iiis-maximum-level-announced-60/] Plus the higher level skill points will still be and feel valuable in D3, rather than just adding .2% to some passive skill, or to a 3rd or 4th synergy skill, as they did in D2.		[[Skills]]. With just 60 skill points (plus some from quest rewards?) the game can be balanced to make each Skill point feel valuable. With more skill points they must be balanced to do less each, or else characters would become overpowered. [http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/diablo-iiis-maximum-level-announced-60/] Plus the higher level skill points will still be and feel valuable in D3, rather than just adding .2% to some passive skill, or to a 3rd or 4th synergy skill, as they did in D2.

@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 Characters do not feel "finished" when they reach Clvl 60.[http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/more-clvl-60-replies-and-debate/] In D2, players tended not to play characters anymore once they'd reached the highest level. Most players were bored of that char by then, after all the grinding, and it seemed pointless to play when you were not gaining experience. This is not at all the case in WoW, where characters reach the maximum level before finishing all the content, and are then still played to [[raid]] the hardest dungeons, looking for top items. In WoW (and some other RPGs) characters essentially *have* to be max level to handle the hardest dungeons. This might be what the D3 team is planning; end game dungeons that are only doable for expert players with very powerful characters, who would have fun and item hunt and earn achievements by doing them.
 ==More Levels Just for Fun?==
@@ Line 28: / Line 30: @@
 <blue>There’s no such thing as extra levels for people who want to grind them out. Either they’re there and provide a necessary boost in power in which case it’s not a choice to get them or not, or they don’t exist. We’re not going to put in extra levels that provide no bonus simply so people have achievements to work toward. That’s what achievements are for. </blue>
 ==Character Level Progression==

@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 [[Skills]]. With just 60 skill points (plus some from quest rewards?) the game can be balanced to make each Skill point feel valuable. With more skill points they must be balanced to do less each, or else characters would become overpowered. [http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/diablo-iiis-maximum-level-announced-60/] Plus the higher level skill points will still be and feel valuable in D3, rather than just adding .2% to some passive skill, or to a 3rd or 4th synergy skill, as they did in D2.
 *  The same principle applies to [[trait]] points, naturally.
@@ Line 15: / Line 20: @@
 Characters do not feel "finished" when they reach Clvl 60.[http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/more-clvl-60-replies-and-debate/] In D2, players tended not to play characters anymore once they'd reached the highest level. Most players were bored of that char by then, after all the grinding, and it seemed pointless to play when you were not gaining experience. This is not at all the case in WoW, where characters reach the maximum level before finishing all the content, and are then still played to [[raid]] the hardest dungeons, looking for top items. In WoW (and some other RPGs) characters essentially *have* to be max level to handle the hardest dungeons. This might be what the D3 team is planning; end game dungeons that are only doable for expert players with very powerful characters, who would have fun and item hunt and earn achievements by doing them.
 ==More Levels Just for Fun?==

@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 ==Max Without Grinding==
-Allowing characters to max out their level without endless grinding is one of the main stated reasons for this change. The [[D3 Team]] thinks they can offer a much more fun and varied [[end game]] than endlessly [run]ning the same level or [[boss]], and they do not want to force players to endure that style of play in order to reach the max level. There are numerous reasons for this.
+Allowing characters to max out their level without endless grinding is one of the main stated reasons for this change. The [[D3 Team]] thinks they can offer a much more fun and varied [[end game]] than endlessly [[run]]ning the same level or [[boss]], and they do not want to force players to endure that style of play in order to reach the max level. There are numerous reasons for this.
 The [[Arena]], for one. The team announced the Clvl 60 change long before they revealed their plans for Arena battles, but once that game feature was known, the connection became obvious. Players will want to duel with their high level characters, and since character power is closely tied to Clvl, the developers wanted to level that playing field. By designing the game so that characters could reach the maximum level through the normal content, players can create top level dueling characters without spending hundreds of repetitious hours. (Freeing them up to spend those hundreds of repetitious hours hunting items to use in the Arena.)
 ==Arguments Against Sixty==

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-Diablo III's maximum character level is 60.  This is a big change from Diablo II, where characters reached 60 midway through [[Nightmare]] difficulty and maxed out at 99; a level that was only achieved through hundreds or thousands of games of [[grind]]ing high level bosses or areas.
+Diablo III's maximum character level is 60.  This is a big change from Diablo II, where characters reached 60 midway through [[Nightmare]] difficulty, and maxed out at 99; a level that was only achieved through hundreds or thousands of games of [[grind]]ing high level bosses or areas.
-Diablo III developers initially planned to follow in those footsteps, and early predictions of the maximum level were 99 or 100. They changed their minds during development, lowering the level to 60 to stay in line with numerous other [[end game]] changes, and perhaps also their plans to add to the maximum level in the expansion packs, the way [[World of Warcraft]] and many other MMORPGs have done.
+Diablo III developers initially planned to follow in those footsteps, and early predictions of the maximum level were 99 or 100. They changed their minds during development, lowering the level to 60 to stay in line with numerous other [[end game]] changes, and perhaps also their plans to add to the maximum level in the expansion packs, the way World of Warcraft has done.
 After initial skepticism and disagreement, most fans accepted the logic behind the change, and a site vote on Diii.net found nearly 50% of fans strongly supportive of the change, with just 16% objecting to it.[http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/vote-diablo-iiis-clvl-60-level-cap/]